[Evangelism] Looking for talking points comparing Plone vs. Wordpress

Discussion:

Ed Manlove

2012-10-25 13:25:08 UTC

I'm attending a local WordCamp [1] in a couple of days - proudly wearing
my Plone T-Shirt - and wanted to brush up on my Plone vs. WordPress
talking points. All of my Plone work has either been on my own project
or within Plone core (RTL, UI testing, i18n, etc) so I've never really
looked outwards too closely. I going to do some searching around but
wanted to see if anyone, in particular our Plone development shops, have
any notes when they talk/work with customers on showing the value of
Plone as compared to Wordpress. Thanks.

Ed

[1] http://2012.providence.wordcamp.org/

ctxlken

2012-10-25 14:07:18 UTC

Permalink

Hi Ed,

I attended a WordCamp in Chicago just a couple months ago. I have lots
of notes regarding common plugins used, load-testing, caching tools
commonly used, etc., but in terms of the main Plone v WordPress
differences, I noticed these:

WP conferences have a lot more focus on the end user, on
marketing/commercial sites, and on SEO topics than Plone events.

WP developers/hosters spend a lot of time fighting security
vulnerabilities and their server IP being blacklisted (since it's
typical for a WP site to be on the same server as 100 other WP sites) -
a LOT! And it scares the hell out of the marketing/management people at
these events to hear so much conversation about 'How do you guys fight
this?' from one dev to the other.

As with many tools, some of the 'cool factor' features of WP need to be
disabled, if you want to have a secure site, evidently, such as the
'Plugin Editor', in particular.

WP still has limited workflow capabilities and there is no built-in
global dashboard of security settings, where you click on/off checkboxes
to give fine-grained permissions. And most add-ons don't register
specific permissions to be managed from some general security settings
dashboard, though I did hear of some plugin that purports to handle
this, but again, if the other plugins don't even think that you'll be
managing permissions so much, they tend to not define said permissions
to do fine-grained things - they're usually very general permissions, as
in 'Admin' who gets to do everything, 'Viewer', and 'Editor' - some user
in between who can maybe edit a post, but not remove them, etc.

I did see a talk on using a script to set fine-grained permissions,
since there is no good UI for doing so, but again, it's still dependent
on the plugins defining fine-grained permissions, so that you can set
permissions at a more granular level, and many plugins don't do that.

Many of the top, most useful WP plugins are commercial. Many people use
something called 'Jetpack'. But I got the impression that to use some
of its better features, you needed to have your WP site hosted on one of
their preferred hosting vendors. Don't take my word for that, though.

Many WP plugins provide really neat features, but have really poor
performing queries that can drag your site down (e.g., 'Smart Tags' that
makes a matrix of keywords-to-tags or something and performs some
horrible multi-table-join queries in doing so.) Users tend to just keep
adding more and more plugins to try things out and never remove them,
slowing down their site (with the mere existence of those plugins in
place.) This is true with Plone too, but not to the same extent, since
with WP, installing a new plugin is a simple point-and-click - no
restart of any services, usually.

Hopefully, some of this helps. Thanks for "representin'" Plone! It's
good for us to go to these types of events to see how we stack up.

Thanks,
Ken

Post by Ed Manlove
I'm attending a local WordCamp [1] in a couple of days - proudly wearing
my Plone T-Shirt - and wanted to brush up on my Plone vs. WordPress
talking points. All of my Plone work has either been on my own project
or within Plone core (RTL, UI testing, i18n, etc) so I've never really
looked outwards too closely. I going to do some searching around but
wanted to see if anyone, in particular our Plone development shops, have
any notes when they talk/work with customers on showing the value of
Plone as compared to Wordpress. Thanks.
Ed
[1] http://2012.providence.wordcamp.org/
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Carol Ganz

2012-10-25 14:28:04 UTC

Permalink

Ken,

Thanks for sharing, the info is definitely helpful.

Thanks,
Carol

Post by ctxlken
Hi Ed,
I attended a WordCamp in Chicago just a couple months ago. I have lots
of notes regarding common plugins used, load-testing, caching tools
commonly used, etc., but in terms of the main Plone v WordPress
WP conferences have a lot more focus on the end user, on
marketing/commercial sites, and on SEO topics than Plone events.
WP developers/hosters spend a lot of time fighting security
vulnerabilities and their server IP being blacklisted (since it's
typical for a WP site to be on the same server as 100 other WP sites) -
a LOT! And it scares the hell out of the marketing/management people at
these events to hear so much conversation about 'How do you guys fight
this?' from one dev to the other.
As with many tools, some of the 'cool factor' features of WP need to be
disabled, if you want to have a secure site, evidently, such as the
'Plugin Editor', in particular.
WP still has limited workflow capabilities and there is no built-in
global dashboard of security settings, where you click on/off checkboxes
to give fine-grained permissions. And most add-ons don't register
specific permissions to be managed from some general security settings
dashboard, though I did hear of some plugin that purports to handle
this, but again, if the other plugins don't even think that you'll be
managing permissions so much, they tend to not define said permissions
to do fine-grained things - they're usually very general permissions, as
in 'Admin' who gets to do everything, 'Viewer', and 'Editor' - some user
in between who can maybe edit a post, but not remove them, etc.
I did see a talk on using a script to set fine-grained permissions,
since there is no good UI for doing so, but again, it's still dependent
on the plugins defining fine-grained permissions, so that you can set
permissions at a more granular level, and many plugins don't do that.
Many of the top, most useful WP plugins are commercial. Many people use
something called 'Jetpack'. But I got the impression that to use some
of its better features, you needed to have your WP site hosted on one of
their preferred hosting vendors. Don't take my word for that, though.
Many WP plugins provide really neat features, but have really poor
performing queries that can drag your site down (e.g., 'Smart Tags' that
makes a matrix of keywords-to-tags or something and performs some
horrible multi-table-join queries in doing so.) Users tend to just keep
adding more and more plugins to try things out and never remove them,
slowing down their site (with the mere existence of those plugins in
place.) This is true with Plone too, but not to the same extent, since
with WP, installing a new plugin is a simple point-and-click - no
restart of any services, usually.
Hopefully, some of this helps. Thanks for "representin'" Plone! It's
good for us to go to these types of events to see how we stack up.
Thanks,
Ken

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T. Kim Nguyen

2012-10-25 14:49:59 UTC

Permalink

Great info!

Re: end users, one of the things we are planning to do at Plone Symposium
Midwest is have a track (a set of talks, training, a demo area) for people
who are very new to Plone -- even people who are just still considering
whether to use Plone. It would be good to have at least a portion of a
talk on the strengths of Plone relative to other CMS's one might be
considering.

So... Ken ... you are hereby volunteered. :)

Kim

Post by Carol Ganz
Ken,
Thanks for sharing, the info is definitely helpful.
Thanks,
Carol

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Post by ctxlken

Post by Ed Manlove
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ctxlken

2012-10-25 15:40:57 UTC

Permalink

I'd already volunteered to help with the symposium. In whatever way you
need. Was just waiting to be asked. Nathan VG said the same, so start
reaching out, buddy!

To my surprise, at the Plone Conf in Arnhem, I had a lot of response to
the "Intranet Shoot-out: Plone vs. Sharepoint" talk I gave. I was
surprised, because a) Who wants to hear about a commercial tool, let
alone an M$ tool, let alone an Intranet tool, right? Not very sexy.
and b) It's not a case study, it doesn't show-off cool Plone features or
any code, etc. Still not sexy. So, it was great to see so many
Plonistas interested in getting the industry knowledge of how Plone
stacks up to other tools.

I definitely think you could have an afternoon of just talks that
compare/contrast Plone to Drupal, Wordpress, Sharepoint. If the PSM is
going to have a Higher Ed bent to it as the PSE did, perhaps there are
other tools (Moodle?) that are used in Higher Ed that your staff might
have enough familiarity with to provide additional talks, but I have to
imagine the 3 I list would be of interest and a good starting point.

Oh, and on Wordpress - one more thing - WP does still have fewer
barriers to entry. Abundant managed hosting options, cheaper options
(although some entry hosting level options are on par between WP and
Plone, usually with WP for $25-30/mo you get 1 site, X page visits or
bandwidth limit, etc. With Plone, you usually get X RAM X DB Disk
storage, etc. ) If you were to host multiple/many sites, then a Plone
hosting option of just getting a cloud server for X/month and managing
multiple sites on your site instance and maybe using multiple mount
points for the DB becomes attractive, but way more complex to setup on
your own than typical click-and-go Wordpress setups, I think. We're
getting there, but not there yet on the low-end hosting range /
1-small-site end of the spectrum. And maybe that's fine, but it's
important to know.

-Ken

Post by T. Kim Nguyen
Great info!
Re: end users, one of the things we are planning to do at Plone
Symposium Midwest is have a track (a set of talks, training, a demo
area) for people who are very new to Plone -- even people who are just
still considering whether to use Plone. It would be good to have at
least a portion of a talk on the strengths of Plone relative to other
CMS's one might be considering.
So... Ken ... you are hereby volunteered. :)
Kim
On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 9:28 AM, Carol Ganz <[hidden email]
Ken,
Thanks for sharing, the info is definitely helpful.
Thanks,
Carol

Post by ctxlken
Hi Ed,
I attended a WordCamp in Chicago just a couple months ago. I

have lots

Post by ctxlken
of notes regarding common plugins used, load-testing, caching tools
commonly used, etc., but in terms of the main Plone v WordPress
WP conferences have a lot more focus on the end user, on
marketing/commercial sites, and on SEO topics than Plone events.
WP developers/hosters spend a lot of time fighting security
vulnerabilities and their server IP being blacklisted (since it's
typical for a WP site to be on the same server as 100 other WP

sites) -

Post by ctxlken
a LOT! And it scares the hell out of the marketing/management

people at

Post by ctxlken
these events to hear so much conversation about 'How do you guys

fight

Post by ctxlken
this?' from one dev to the other.
As with many tools, some of the 'cool factor' features of WP

need to be

Post by ctxlken
disabled, if you want to have a secure site, evidently, such as the
'Plugin Editor', in particular.
WP still has limited workflow capabilities and there is no built-in
global dashboard of security settings, where you click on/off

checkboxes

Post by ctxlken
to give fine-grained permissions. And most add-ons don't register
specific permissions to be managed from some general security

settings

Post by ctxlken
dashboard, though I did hear of some plugin that purports to handle
this, but again, if the other plugins don't even think that

you'll be

Post by ctxlken
managing permissions so much, they tend to not define said

permissions

Post by ctxlken
to do fine-grained things - they're usually very general

permissions, as

Post by ctxlken
in 'Admin' who gets to do everything, 'Viewer', and 'Editor' -

some user

Post by ctxlken
in between who can maybe edit a post, but not remove them, etc.
I did see a talk on using a script to set fine-grained permissions,
since there is no good UI for doing so, but again, it's still

dependent

Post by ctxlken
on the plugins defining fine-grained permissions, so that you

can set

Post by ctxlken
permissions at a more granular level, and many plugins don't do

that.

Post by ctxlken
Many of the top, most useful WP plugins are commercial. Many

people use

Post by ctxlken
something called 'Jetpack'. But I got the impression that to

use some

Post by ctxlken
of its better features, you needed to have your WP site hosted

on one of

Post by ctxlken
their preferred hosting vendors. Don't take my word for that,

though.

Post by ctxlken
Many WP plugins provide really neat features, but have really poor
performing queries that can drag your site down (e.g., 'Smart

Tags' that

Post by ctxlken
makes a matrix of keywords-to-tags or something and performs some
horrible multi-table-join queries in doing so.) Users tend to

just keep

Post by ctxlken
adding more and more plugins to try things out and never remove

them,

Post by ctxlken
slowing down their site (with the mere existence of those plugins in
place.) This is true with Plone too, but not to the same

extent, since

Post by ctxlken
with WP, installing a new plugin is a simple point-and-click - no
restart of any services, usually.
Hopefully, some of this helps. Thanks for "representin'" Plone!

It's

Post by ctxlken
good for us to go to these types of events to see how we stack up.
Thanks,
Ken

Post by Ed Manlove
I'm attending a local WordCamp [1] in a couple of days -

proudly wearing

Post by ctxlken

Post by Ed Manlove
my Plone T-Shirt - and wanted to brush up on my Plone vs. WordPress
talking points. All of my Plone work has either been on my own

project

Post by ctxlken

Post by Ed Manlove
or within Plone core (RTL, UI testing, i18n, etc) so I've never

really

Post by ctxlken

Post by Ed Manlove
looked outwards too closely. I going to do some searching

around but

Post by ctxlken

Post by Ed Manlove
wanted to see if anyone, in particular our Plone development

shops, have

Post by ctxlken

Post by Ed Manlove
any notes when they talk/work with customers on showing the

value of

Post by ctxlken

Post by Ed Manlove
Plone as compared to Wordpress. Thanks.
Ed
[1] http://2012.providence.wordcamp.org/
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Post by Ed Manlove
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Post by ctxlken

Post by Ed Manlove
To start a new topic under Evangelism, email
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For UW Oshkosh Plone help and site requests, please email [hidden
email] </user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=7560635&i=4> or visit
http://uwosh.edu/ploneprojects/help
UW Oshkosh Intranet Project
http://plonedev.uwosh.edu/intranettaskforce
http://uwosh.edu/plone
Co-Chair, PloneEdu initiative for K-12 & higher education
http://ploneedu.org
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Armin Stroß-Radschinski

2012-10-25 16:27:17 UTC

Permalink

Hi Ken,
thanks for collecting this and sharing. I enjoyed your Sharepoint talk
as well!

Beneath catching highlight headlines, we need more of this kind of
technical base information after we have Plone newcomers on the hook.

Lets create professional Whitepapers
==================================

How can we proceed to refine this topic into one whitepaper like
content for Plone.com called

"Plone vs. WP ? The Full Featured CMS Plone compared against
WordPress" a WhitePaper

(How does this title sound for native speakers?)

If someone is willing to step up to find the tenor of language we need
to put the finger into the wound without too much bashing? A
Whitepaper should cover arguments people need to internally promote
Plone in their organisation or to their customers after discovering
there is a safe alternate CMS!

If you think you can rewrite existing stuff like below for target
groups, please join the plone.com mailing list http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/plone-com
and drop me a line to join the trello board for task sharing!

The same has to be done with the excellent Sharepoint feature
comparison.

Armin

Post by ctxlken
I'd already volunteered to help with the symposium. In whatever way you
need. Was just waiting to be asked. Nathan VG said the same, so start
reaching out, buddy!
To my surprise, at the Plone Conf in Arnhem, I had a lot of response to
the "Intranet Shoot-out: Plone vs. Sharepoint" talk I gave. I was
surprised, because a) Who wants to hear about a commercial tool, let
alone an M$ tool, let alone an Intranet tool, right? Not very sexy.
and b) It's not a case study, it doesn't show-off cool Plone
features or
any code, etc. Still not sexy. So, it was great to see so many
Plonistas interested in getting the industry knowledge of how Plone
stacks up to other tools.
I definitely think you could have an afternoon of just talks that
compare/contrast Plone to Drupal, Wordpress, Sharepoint. If the PSM is
going to have a Higher Ed bent to it as the PSE did, perhaps there are
other tools (Moodle?) that are used in Higher Ed that your staff might
have enough familiarity with to provide additional talks, but I have to
imagine the 3 I list would be of interest and a good starting point.
Oh, and on Wordpress - one more thing - WP does still have fewer
barriers to entry. Abundant managed hosting options, cheaper options
(although some entry hosting level options are on par between WP and
Plone, usually with WP for $25-30/mo you get 1 site, X page visits or
bandwidth limit, etc. With Plone, you usually get X RAM X DB Disk
storage, etc. ) If you were to host multiple/many sites, then a Plone
hosting option of just getting a cloud server for X/month and managing
multiple sites on your site instance and maybe using multiple mount
points for the DB becomes attractive, but way more complex to setup on
your own than typical click-and-go Wordpress setups, I think. We're
getting there, but not there yet on the low-end hosting range /
1-small-site end of the spectrum. And maybe that's fine, but it's
important to know.
-Ken

Post by ctxlken
Hi Ed,
I attended a WordCamp in Chicago just a couple months ago. I

have lots

sites) -

Post by ctxlken
a LOT! And it scares the hell out of the marketing/management

people at

Post by ctxlken
these events to hear so much conversation about 'How do you guys

fight

Post by ctxlken
this?' from one dev to the other.
As with many tools, some of the 'cool factor' features of WP

need to be

checkboxes

Post by ctxlken
to give fine-grained permissions. And most add-ons don't register
specific permissions to be managed from some general security

settings

Post by ctxlken
dashboard, though I did hear of some plugin that purports to handle
this, but again, if the other plugins don't even think that

you'll be

Post by ctxlken
managing permissions so much, they tend to not define said

permissions

Post by ctxlken
to do fine-grained things - they're usually very general

permissions, as

Post by ctxlken
in 'Admin' who gets to do everything, 'Viewer', and 'Editor' -

some user

dependent

Post by ctxlken
on the plugins defining fine-grained permissions, so that you

can set

Post by ctxlken
permissions at a more granular level, and many plugins don't do

that.

Post by ctxlken
Many of the top, most useful WP plugins are commercial. Many

people use

Post by ctxlken
something called 'Jetpack'. But I got the impression that to

use some

Post by ctxlken
of its better features, you needed to have your WP site hosted

on one of

Post by ctxlken
their preferred hosting vendors. Don't take my word for that,

though.

Post by ctxlken
Many WP plugins provide really neat features, but have really poor
performing queries that can drag your site down (e.g., 'Smart

Tags' that

Post by ctxlken
makes a matrix of keywords-to-tags or something and performs some
horrible multi-table-join queries in doing so.) Users tend to

just keep

Post by ctxlken
adding more and more plugins to try things out and never remove

them,

Post by ctxlken
slowing down their site (with the mere existence of those plugins in
place.) This is true with Plone too, but not to the same

extent, since

Post by ctxlken
with WP, installing a new plugin is a simple point-and-click - no
restart of any services, usually.
Hopefully, some of this helps. Thanks for "representin'" Plone!

It's

Post by ctxlken
good for us to go to these types of events to see how we stack up.
Thanks,
Ken

Post by Ed Manlove
I'm attending a local WordCamp [1] in a couple of days -

proudly wearing

Post by ctxlken

Post by Ed Manlove
my Plone T-Shirt - and wanted to brush up on my Plone vs. WordPress
talking points. All of my Plone work has either been on my own

project

Post by ctxlken

Post by Ed Manlove
or within Plone core (RTL, UI testing, i18n, etc) so I've never

really

Post by ctxlken

Post by Ed Manlove
looked outwards too closely. I going to do some searching

around but

Post by ctxlken

Post by Ed Manlove
wanted to see if anyone, in particular our Plone development

shops, have

Post by ctxlken

Post by Ed Manlove
any notes when they talk/work with customers on showing the

value of

Post by ctxlken

Post by Ed Manlove
Plone as compared to Wordpress. Thanks.
Ed
[1] http://2012.providence.wordcamp.org/
_______________________________________________

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Ken Wasetis - Contextual Corp.

2012-10-25 16:35:19 UTC

Permalink

Armin,

I'm on that plone-com list already, but what would help would be to know
where the main 'jumping off point' is. Is there a main landing
page/portal that directs people to:
- Google Docs
- Mailing List
- Plone.com staging site (where we can see current state of the theme,
content, etc.)

Also, where is the content being done? We can't just have a complete
wiki environment where everyone just types over each other's content, I
think, but we also don't want to hold-up progress.

I've been on the mailing list, but to be honest, got lost long ago as to
where to go to contribute, as things just went in 5 directions - at
least to me. As I tried to track the list updates during a period I was
too busy to actually do the work, there were so many updates coming per
day that I couldn't really keep up.

Please update those like me who might want to help, but aren't sure
where to start.

For instance, for the CMSX vs Plone and CMSY vs. Plone type of
comparisons, I think a shared Google Doc would be a good place to
start. Then, we can add/polish up some copy around those points to plug
into presentations, whitepapers, etc.

Thanks,
Ken

Post by Armin StroÃ-Radschinski
Hi Ken,
thanks for collecting this and sharing. I enjoyed your Sharepoint talk
as well!
Beneath catching highlight headlines, we need more of this kind of
technical base information after we have Plone newcomers on the hook.
Lets create professional Whitepapers
==================================
How can we proceed to refine this topic into one whitepaper like
content for Plone.com called
"Plone vs. WP ? The Full Featured CMS Plone compared against
WordPress" a WhitePaper
(How does this title sound for native speakers?)
If someone is willing to step up to find the tenor of language we need
to put the finger into the wound without too much bashing? A
Whitepaper should cover arguments people need to internally promote
Plone in their organisation or to their customers after discovering
there is a safe alternate CMS!
If you think you can rewrite existing stuff like below for target
groups, please join the plone.com mailing list
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/plone-com and drop me a line
to join the trello board for task sharing!
The same has to be done with the excellent Sharepoint feature comparison.
Armin

Post by ctxlken
I'd already volunteered to help with the symposium. In whatever way you
need. Was just waiting to be asked. Nathan VG said the same, so start
reaching out, buddy!
To my surprise, at the Plone Conf in Arnhem, I had a lot of response to
the "Intranet Shoot-out: Plone vs. Sharepoint" talk I gave. I was
surprised, because a) Who wants to hear about a commercial tool, let
alone an M$ tool, let alone an Intranet tool, right? Not very sexy.
and b) It's not a case study, it doesn't show-off cool Plone features or
any code, etc. Still not sexy. So, it was great to see so many
Plonistas interested in getting the industry knowledge of how Plone
stacks up to other tools.
I definitely think you could have an afternoon of just talks that
compare/contrast Plone to Drupal, Wordpress, Sharepoint. If the PSM is
going to have a Higher Ed bent to it as the PSE did, perhaps there are
other tools (Moodle?) that are used in Higher Ed that your staff might
have enough familiarity with to provide additional talks, but I have to
imagine the 3 I list would be of interest and a good starting point.
Oh, and on Wordpress - one more thing - WP does still have fewer
barriers to entry. Abundant managed hosting options, cheaper options
(although some entry hosting level options are on par between WP and
Plone, usually with WP for $25-30/mo you get 1 site, X page visits or
bandwidth limit, etc. With Plone, you usually get X RAM X DB Disk
storage, etc. ) If you were to host multiple/many sites, then a Plone
hosting option of just getting a cloud server for X/month and managing
multiple sites on your site instance and maybe using multiple mount
points for the DB becomes attractive, but way more complex to setup on
your own than typical click-and-go Wordpress setups, I think. We're
getting there, but not there yet on the low-end hosting range /
1-small-site end of the spectrum. And maybe that's fine, but it's
important to know.
-Ken

Post by ctxlken
Hi Ed,
I attended a WordCamp in Chicago just a couple months ago. I

have lots

sites) -

Post by ctxlken
a LOT! And it scares the hell out of the marketing/management

people at

Post by ctxlken
these events to hear so much conversation about 'How do you guys

fight

Post by ctxlken
this?' from one dev to the other.
As with many tools, some of the 'cool factor' features of WP

need to be

checkboxes

Post by ctxlken
to give fine-grained permissions. And most add-ons don't register
specific permissions to be managed from some general security

settings

Post by ctxlken
dashboard, though I did hear of some plugin that purports to handle
this, but again, if the other plugins don't even think that

you'll be

Post by ctxlken
managing permissions so much, they tend to not define said

permissions

Post by ctxlken
to do fine-grained things - they're usually very general

permissions, as

Post by ctxlken
in 'Admin' who gets to do everything, 'Viewer', and 'Editor' -

some user

dependent

Post by ctxlken
on the plugins defining fine-grained permissions, so that you

can set

Post by ctxlken
permissions at a more granular level, and many plugins don't do

that.

Post by ctxlken
Many of the top, most useful WP plugins are commercial. Many

people use

Post by ctxlken
something called 'Jetpack'. But I got the impression that to

use some

Post by ctxlken
of its better features, you needed to have your WP site hosted

on one of

Post by ctxlken
their preferred hosting vendors. Don't take my word for that,

though.

Post by ctxlken
Many WP plugins provide really neat features, but have really poor
performing queries that can drag your site down (e.g., 'Smart

Tags' that

Post by ctxlken
makes a matrix of keywords-to-tags or something and performs some
horrible multi-table-join queries in doing so.) Users tend to

just keep

Post by ctxlken
adding more and more plugins to try things out and never remove

them,

Post by ctxlken
slowing down their site (with the mere existence of those plugins in
place.) This is true with Plone too, but not to the same

extent, since

Post by ctxlken
with WP, installing a new plugin is a simple point-and-click - no
restart of any services, usually.
Hopefully, some of this helps. Thanks for "representin'" Plone!

It's

Post by ctxlken
good for us to go to these types of events to see how we stack up.
Thanks,
Ken

Post by Ed Manlove
I'm attending a local WordCamp [1] in a couple of days -

proudly wearing

Post by ctxlken

Post by Ed Manlove
my Plone T-Shirt - and wanted to brush up on my Plone vs. WordPress
talking points. All of my Plone work has either been on my own

project

Post by ctxlken

Post by Ed Manlove
or within Plone core (RTL, UI testing, i18n, etc) so I've never

really

Post by ctxlken

Post by Ed Manlove
looked outwards too closely. I going to do some searching

around but

Post by ctxlken

Post by Ed Manlove
wanted to see if anyone, in particular our Plone development

shops, have

Post by ctxlken

Post by Ed Manlove
any notes when they talk/work with customers on showing the

value of

Post by ctxlken

Post by Ed Manlove
Plone as compared to Wordpress. Thanks.
Ed
[1] http://2012.providence.wordcamp.org/
_______________________________________________

--
Ken Wasetis
President & CMS Solution Architect
Contextual Corp.
office: 847-356-3027
ken.wasetis at contextualcorp.com

--
Armin Carl Stro?-Radschinski, Dipl. Designer
acsr industrialdesign, Landgrafenstra?e 32, 53842 Troisdorf, Germany
Telefon +49 (0) 22 41 / 94 69 94, FAX +49 (0) 22 41 / 94 69 96
eMail a.stross-radschinski at acsr.de - http://www.acsr.de
UST. ID Nr: DE154092803 (EU VAT ID)

--
Ken Wasetis

President & CMS Solution Architect
Contextual Corp.
office: 847-356-3027
ken.wasetis at contextualcorp.com

Giacomo Spettoli

2012-10-25 14:58:26 UTC

Permalink

Hi Ed,
this spring during the sorrento sprint there has been a similar
comparison. Here's a googledoc where all the points have been highlighted:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjjG4VVlsN-IdG5rRmNnbWJmTjdzZDFaNklKOWoyd0E#gid=0

cheers,
Giacomo

--
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T. Kim Nguyen

2012-10-25 16:46:14 UTC

Permalink

Thanks for the comments, Alex. We don't beat anybody up over using Plone
instead of anything else. The approach we've taken in our Plone promotion
within UW System is to present the strengths of Plone and what we've done;
those on their own speak volumes. Then we make sure everyone knows we are
open to helping them. A soft sell, really. You're absolutely right: having
someone on the ground or easily available helps gain adoption.

Kim

Yup, Ed had originally crossposted to both lists (
evangelism at lists.plone.org does exist). -- Kim

(FWIW: I think there is an evangalism list? I could be wrong.)
I'm not sure where I fit in the spectrum, but I rarely try to convince
people to use Plone over Wordpress. I mention the strengths and
weaknesses of each (e.g. Wordpress has a really impressive "finished
product" feel to it, Plone has great security, etc) but then: I
recommend they experiment with both to decide which feels best for them.
Some organizations have a lot invested in PHP and don't want to use a
foreign technology, and vice versa.
Sometimes there is a "show-stopping feature" that prevents or
encourages the use of one over the other.
Lastly, you'd be surprised how much the "human element" affects
people's decisions. If there is a person or group of people using and
recommending the software to an organization, that recommendation can
go a long way toward helping them decide (e.g. if someone wants to work
with me I'm likely not doing Wordpress for them :-)).
Alex

Post by Ed Manlove
Ed
[1] http://2012.providence.wordcamp.org/

Armin Stroß-Radschinski

2012-10-25 18:32:31 UTC

Permalink

Hi Kim, would you like to sign up for the Plone.com Trello board to
catch some tasks in the next days?
I send you an invitation. If you are confused, wait until I have
wrapped up the stuff!

Armin

Post by T. Kim Nguyen
Thanks for the comments, Alex. We don't beat anybody up over using
Plone instead of anything else. The approach we've taken in our
Plone promotion within UW System is to present the strengths of
Plone and what we've done; those on their own speak volumes. Then we
make sure everyone knows we are open to helping them. A soft sell,
really. You're absolutely right: having someone on the ground or
easily available helps gain adoption.
Kim
Yup, Ed had originally crossposted to both lists (evangelism at lists.plone.org
does exist). -- Kim

Post by Ed Manlove
I'm attending a local WordCamp [1] in a couple of days - proudly

wearing

Post by Ed Manlove
my Plone T-Shirt - and wanted to brush up on my Plone vs. WordPress
talking points. All of my Plone work has either been on my own

project

Post by Ed Manlove
or within Plone core (RTL, UI testing, i18n, etc) so I've never

really

Post by Ed Manlove
looked outwards too closely. I going to do some searching around but
wanted to see if anyone, in particular our Plone development

shops, have

Post by Ed Manlove
any notes when they talk/work with customers on showing the value of
Plone as compared to Wordpress. Thanks.

Post by Ed Manlove
Ed
[1] http://2012.providence.wordcamp.org/

--
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Matt Hamilton

2012-10-26 08:58:01 UTC

Permalink

Ed,
Another area that I often mention when comparing Plone with other CMSes is deployment and configuration management. ie. buildout. No other system I know of has something quite like it. If you are talking to Wordpress people then see how they deal with having a development, staging, and production environments and how they promote changes in both content and functionality/theme/config from one to another. Whilst the majority of Wordpress people won't care about issues like that for their little blog, it is a very big issue to bring up for those that decide they want to try and use Wordpress as a full blown CMS.

-Matt

I'm attending a local WordCamp [1] in a couple of days - proudly wearing my Plone T-Shirt - and wanted to brush up on my Plone vs. WordPress talking points. All of my Plone work has either been on my own project or within Plone core (RTL, UI testing, i18n, etc) so I've never really looked outwards too closely. I going to do some searching around but wanted to see if anyone, in particular our Plone development shops, have any notes when they talk/work with customers on showing the value of Plone as compared to Wordpress. Thanks.
Ed
[1] http://2012.providence.wordcamp.org/
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Armin Stroß-Radschinski

2012-10-26 10:01:04 UTC

Permalink

Lennart you are right,
but Plone giving WordPress a challenge as a simple blog or simple
workflow website tool is like the tiger wanting to eat whiskas all days.

Our target is more catching all the upcoming tigers and cure them from
trying to start with cat food or cheese.

There is line between these markets WP cannot cross until now. For a
lot of agencies praising WP as easy and fast / cheap solution, there
is a point the customer grows his business. Lets catch them there!
Maybe before they are addicted to cat food. This is our strenght.
Security, deployment, scaleability, access control, workflows etc.

Armin

On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Ed Manlove <devPyPlTw at verizon.net>

They are just different. Wordpress is a blog/WebCMS. If you are OK
with using finished templates, making a website with Wordpress is fast
and relatively painless. It works fine for a small "poster-type"
website where you have products and a blog for news/pressreleases. And
if you have a custom design there are tons of HTML hackers that can
skin it. So wordpress is good, if what wordpress does is what you
want.
Plone is an "enterprise" CMS, where you can have custom content types,
custom workflow and you can make loads of things happen automatically.
You can make it do anything you want, as long as what you want is a
content management system. I have customers who use it essentially as
a workflowed document management system, where PDF's with actual
scanned papers are moved throughout stages and approvals, all done
with TTW configuration.
Plone therefore is what you use if Wordpress *doesn't* do exactly what
you want. The benefit here with Plone is that you can use it for the
type of sites you use Wordpress for as well, which means by starting
with Plone you don't paint yourself into a corner. However, there are
few finished skins to choose from, so you are likely to want your own
custom design, and implementing it takes more work, and you generally
can't host it at the really cheap PHP-type hosts that Wordpress can be
on. So the cost is higher.
//Lennart
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Dylan Jay

2012-10-26 12:14:19 UTC

Permalink

Our challenge is to make plone as simple as wp. Hosted plone with
diazo is powerful and more customizable. Our challenge is to make it
easier than wp for a simple blog or site. Why let people choose?

Dylan Jay
Technical solution manager
PretaWeb 99552830

Post by Armin StroÃ-Radschinski
Lennart you are right,
but Plone giving WordPress a challenge as a simple blog or simple workflow website tool is like the tiger wanting to eat whiskas all days.
Our target is more catching all the upcoming tigers and cure them from trying to start with cat food or cheese.
There is line between these markets WP cannot cross until now. For a lot of agencies praising WP as easy and fast / cheap solution, there is a point the customer grows his business. Lets catch them there! Maybe before they are addicted to cat food. This is our strenght. Security, deployment, scaleability, access control, workflows etc.
Armin

_______________________________________________
Evangelism mailing list
Evangelism at lists.plone.org
https://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/plone-evangelism

Armin Stroß-Radschinski

2012-10-26 14:10:58 UTC

Permalink

On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Armin Stro?-Radschinski

Well, what our target is, is something completely different. The
question is not what customers Plone wants, but what system the
customer wants. :-)
//Lennart

Youre wrong from my point of view...

I am always selling what the customer needs and not what he wants!
Customers do not know what they need!
So I have to change my communication strategy!

The main difference of the result after using this strategy is that
the customer is happy AFTER the job instead of before the job.

So we only should attract people that need Plone ;-)

Armin

?If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster
horses.?
? Henry Ford

Armin Stroß-Radschinski

2012-10-26 14:25:02 UTC

Permalink

Post by Armin StroÃ-Radschinski

On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Armin Stro?-Radschinski

Well, what our target is, is something completely different. The
question is not what customers Plone wants, but what system the
customer wants. :-)
//Lennart

Youre wrong from my point of view...
I am always selling what the customer needs and not what he wants!
Customers do not know what they need!

Clarification: As a designer, I sell innovation! Stuff that mostly
nobody delivered before.
But if a 1000 flys cannot be wrong eating more sh... is not an option.

WordPress had a lot of luck when the movabletype vendor/developer did
the well known mistake to change their licence policy and initiated a
switch of the whole community to WordPress.

The chance to jump on a train like that is rare but should be catched
if e.g. Sharepoint fails. But hopefully we are in the sharks reef
instead of the gold fish glass. Be careful and have fun!

Armin

Post by Armin StroÃ-Radschinski
So I have to change my communication strategy!
The main difference of the result after using this strategy is that
the customer is happy AFTER the job instead of before the job.
So we only should attract people that need Plone ;-)
Armin
?If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster
horses.?
? Henry Ford
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Dylan Jay

2012-10-26 12:09:38 UTC

Permalink

Have you looked at post v3 wp? It has changed a lot with custom content
types for example.

Dylan Jay
Technical solution manager
PretaWeb 99552830

Many say that Plone is an enterprise CMS and Wordpress is not. Personally I
question if Wordpress even qualifies for the name "Content Management
System".

To really be a CMS a system would expect a system to be capable of handling
content in all the possible forms it may take and Wordpress is certainly
not capable of that. And to "manage" content you would expect a system to
be able to provide fine control over access, handle a wide range of
possible workflows, version control, etc - again Wordpress is not capable
of this. So frankly I don't think Wordpress qualifies to be called a CMS.

Wordpress is a blog system with a large number of add-on features and skins
- it is great for that purpose and if your requirements match its features
well then its a quick, simple, cheap to host solution. But if you really
want "Content Management" then it is unlikely to come anywhere near a
complete solution.

Tom

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Matt Hamilton

2012-10-26 12:24:57 UTC

Permalink

And regardless of what *we think* WP is, it *is* being seen and sold as a CMS these days.

-Matt

Have you looked at post v3 wp? It has changed a lot with custom content types for example.
Dylan Jay
Technical solution manager
PretaWeb 99552830

Many say that Plone is an enterprise CMS and Wordpress is not. Personally I question if Wordpress even qualifies for the name "Content Management System".
To really be a CMS a system would expect a system to be capable of handling content in all the possible forms it may take and Wordpress is certainly not capable of that. And to "manage" content you would expect a system to be able to provide fine control over access, handle a wide range of possible workflows, version control, etc - again Wordpress is not capable of this. So frankly I don't think Wordpress qualifies to be called a CMS.
Wordpress is a blog system with a large number of add-on features and skins - it is great for that purpose and if your requirements match its features well then its a quick, simple, cheap to host solution. But if you really want "Content Management" then it is unlikely to come anywhere near a complete solution.
Tom
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Ed Manlove

2012-11-25 00:17:20 UTC

Permalink

Here is a belated report from my day at WordCamp Providence [1]. I was
attending as regular participate interested in some technology topics
and in, more so, the local community and their use of WordPress. I
wasn't giving a talk this time around. Here are some of the highlights
of the day...

The first talk I attended, a talk about use of WordPress within
academia, was given by a trio of people from The Harrington School of
Communication and Media at URI. What struck me most was Miss Lukovics
talk on her use of WordPress for her student portfolio. Their talk
reminded me of Jim Groom's keynote at PSUEast2012 [2]. I passed on the
url for PSUEast and Jim's talk to the director at the Harrington School.

The second talk I attended was given by Jess Jurick entitled "Writing
Tools for WordPress". Among the themes that stood out was the need for
publishing workflows and writer management. There was a fair amount talk
about drafts. Most of this functionality it seemed came from
third-party add-ons instead of Plone's built-in workflow, permissions,
scheduled publishing. Concerning wysiwyg editiors the NY Times' ICE
editor was mentioned.

The one sole tech talk I attended, "Debugging, Testing, Security,
Performance", was given by John James Jacoby. John works for
Automattic, the company behind WordPress.com, and is also the lead
BuddyPress (WordPress-powered social networks?) and bbPress (bulletin
board, forum add-on for WP?) developer. John flew through his slides and
hit various topics. Since I am neither a WordPress developer nor did I
need intimate details I had few take-aways from his talk. Mostly is that
WordPress security is difficult to implement and difficult to keep
strong and that debugging in php is hard (but apparently getting better).

Brad Parson gave an interesting talk on responsive design. As far as I
could tell Brad is more developer then designer but much of his advice
was in sync with what Jen Robbins had said during an earlier talk at a
different web designer meetup. One topic he brought up, lack of
web-based responsive design advertisements, is being addressed by a
local startup, Pennant - http://pennant.co/, that I was introduced to at
another startup incubator launch night. (Apparently I'm seeing/attending
a lot of responsive design at local tech meetings...)

I attend a few more talks covering topics of entrepreneurship and
WordPress themes. I talked with a few people but no one who was doing an
evaluation of CMSes. It seemed as if most people were using WordPress
for basic sites with blogs and a few other pages with information (About
pages, basic portfolios, etc) and a fair amount of novice users. This
was what I was expecting and I do want to thank everyone who offered
suggestions for Plone vs. X talking points. I plan on continuing
attending local events and talking about Plone. If anyone has any
question on my interactions or thoughts on the WordCamp Providence event
please ask.

Ed

[1] http://2012.providence.wordcamp.org/
[2] http://weblion.psu.edu/news/jim-groom-to-keynote-at-pse12

dtlenergy

2012-12-11 17:09:09 UTC

Permalink

One thing I would say in favour of Wordpress is that more people know how to
program in PHP and use MySql than know
Python.

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Steve McMahon

2012-12-11 17:28:33 UTC

Permalink

A point to keep in mind about the "more people know PHP" point.

A few years ago, I was at a symposium for advocacy organizations, and the
lead Drupal speaker made just that point (PHP coders are cheap and
plentiful!). However, at a Drupal-specific panel later in the day, he said
that if you needed customization, you should never hire anyone with less
than three years full-time programming with Drupal. He termed PHP
experience outside Drupal "worthless" since they wouldn't know the Drupal
way, and wouldn't be able to write safe code.

Post by dtlenergy
One thing I would say in favour of Wordpress is that more people know how to
program in PHP and use MySql than know
Python.
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Dylan Jay

2012-12-11 19:31:24 UTC

Permalink

I have a talk last week at a CMS expo. The Drupal guy was boasting Drupal
is now so easy he can teach someone in a month. In my talk I live demoed
diazo by downloading the expo site and turned started turning into a theme.
You can get someone doing diazo in a day. And that gets you a long way
with plone.

Dylan Jay
Technical solution manager
PretaWeb 99552830
On 12/12/2012, at 4:29 AM, Steve McMahon <steve at dcn.org> wrote:

A point to keep in mind about the "more people know PHP" point.

A few years ago, I was at a symposium for advocacy organizations, and the
lead Drupal speaker made just that point (PHP coders are cheap and
plentiful!). However, at a Drupal-specific panel later in the day, he said
that if you needed customization, you should never hire anyone with less
than three years full-time programming with Drupal. He termed PHP
experience outside Drupal "worthless" since they wouldn't know the Drupal
way, and wouldn't be able to write safe code.

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dduncan

2013-01-15 05:51:01 UTC

Permalink

Needing three years of experience to customize anything successfully in
Drupal is precisely why I don't use it. I understand having special
functions and all, but I don't see that much from Drupal to make it
worthwhile in my opinion.

Post by Steve McMahon
A point to keep in mind about the "more people know PHP" point.
A few years ago, I was at a symposium for advocacy organizations, and the
lead Drupal speaker made just that point (PHP coders are cheap and
plentiful!). However, at a Drupal-specific panel later in the day, he said
that if you needed customization, you should never hire anyone with less
than three years full-time programming with Drupal. He termed PHP
experience outside Drupal "worthless" since they wouldn't know the Drupal
way, and wouldn't be able to write safe code.
On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 9:09 AM, dtlenergy <

Post by dtlenergy
One thing I would say in favour of Wordpress is that more people know
how
to
program in PHP and use MySql than know
Python.
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Post by dtlenergy
https://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/plone-evangelism

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Servilio Afre Puentes

2013-01-15 14:19:11 UTC

Permalink

Post by dduncan
Needing three years of experience to customize anything successfully in
Drupal is precisely why I don't use it. I understand having special
functions and all, but I don't see that much from Drupal to make it
worthwhile in my opinion.

Don't forget deployment, even with drush in the picture it is several
steps behind buildout/fabric/etc. that we have in the Python ecosystem.

Servilio

T. Kim Nguyen

2013-01-15 16:34:16 UTC

Permalink

We're launching the Plone Symposium Midwest 2013 site (Come to Oshkosh this
June 2-9!!!!), but I thought you might want to see what we included as the
top navigational item on the site: "What is Plone?"

https://midwest.plonesymp.org/what-is-plone

We are accepting talk proposals now! You heard it here first. :)

Go Plone!

Kim

On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 8:19 AM, Servilio Afre Puentes <

Post by Servilio Afre Puentes

Don't forget deployment, even with drush in the picture it is several
steps behind buildout/fabric/etc. that we have in the Python ecosystem.
Servilio
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David Bain

2012-12-11 17:32:49 UTC

Permalink

I'm fresh from teaching wordpress in a web management course, I think
this was a good experience as it helped me to get some hands on with
the system. The PHP vs Python concern is less of a talking point if
you're dealing with site administrators and designers who only know
CSS and HTML. The issue then becomes how easy it is to customize a
theme using the skillset that you already have, don't underestimate
how confusing it is to see something like this in a header.php file:

<!DOCTYPE html>

<html <?php language_attributes(); ?>>

<head>

<title><?php echo get_bloginfo('name'); ?> <?php wp_title(); ?></title>

<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="<?php echo
get_bloginfo('html_type'); ?>; charset=<?php echo
get_bloginfo('charset'); ?>" />
<meta name="keywords" content="" />
<meta name="description" content="<?php echo
get_bloginfo('description'); ?>" />
<meta name="robots" content="index, follow" />


<?php
print '<style type="text/css" media="all">';
print '@import "'.get_template_directory_uri().'/css/reset.css";';
print '@import "'.get_template_directory_uri().'/css/screen.php";';
print '</style>';
?>



<?php
if ( function_exists( 'get_option_tree') ) {
$phonetext = get_option_tree( 'value_phonetext' );
$phoneicon = get_option_tree( 'value_phoneicon' );
$offertext = get_option_tree( 'value_offertext' );
}
?>

<?php wp_head(); ?>
</head>

<body <?php body_class(); ?>>

For comparison, I would show the code for an html template in Plone
(which is basically just html) and put that next to the code for a
wordpress theme on a single slide.

I'd argue that, while installation and setup is pretty trivial with
wordpress, customization is becoming trickier. I gauge this by how
hard it is to teach to non-programmers.

Post by dtlenergy
One thing I would say in favour of Wordpress is that more people know how to
program in PHP and use MySql than know
Python.
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